iDIDJ Australia Didgeridoo Cultural Hub

Hi Ambros,
Let me bypass Kyle! No I will not because I'm not sure to understand well what you said, problem of language! I will try to explain something around
Your first clip is not very good because of Guan's microphone saturation, so the sound is alterate and dirty at any time.
But the second clip, waaouhh... You can not find better to talk about passive voice. Mirrwatnga is a monster. This clip is astonishing and in good quality. So what can we hear on this course sound clip? He uses his voice every time except when he plays the sounds spelt 'dup' and 'dith' by Randin G. If I can try something, maybe we could explain this because these two sounds don't need to be dirty. They are specials because they bring breaking along the music phrase, as they are different in terms of feeling you can use them as a tempo mark. 'Dith' and 'dup' without voice are so punchy that they got a great potentiel as rythmic and syncopation sounds: when 'dith' is used, it means that there will be something new after, it brings a new start. It can accentuate a time, bringing a clear basic rythm, or within a time to create syncopation for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fORJtyRAC8). Well that's my hypothesis to explain why 'dith' and 'dup' exist as they are, for me with voice they will be too flat, or less interesting !
That's my understanding of 'dith' and 'dup', and I must recognize that I sleep well since I've got the right 'dith' sound. I was not comfortable with my playing before

Of course 'dup' is not especially use as a rythmic (like in the dolphin theme) but 'dith' sound is by essence punchy. It can not be continuous, that's why it has quite the same lenght whatever the tempo is.

About the voice on this clip with Mirrwatnga, you can hear two types of voice. The one we can called 'passive' and the one we can called 'growly', which gives the feeling of superimposing the 'passive'. There is another one associated with screams, so with a frequency distinguishable, a lot above the drone key. These two kinds of voice used marvelously by Mirrwatnga are (too little) explained by Milkay on the 'bonus' part of the hard tongue CD.

Well, excuse for this too long post but it tooks me years to understand that, and I think it could be usefull for depressed players in transition from modern to trad, as I was years ago!

Kyle, anybody? Correct me if you disagree !
(about the origin of 'dith' and 'dup' sounds for the yirdaki playing, it's just my hypothesis, my story!)

Very interesting thoughts here Anthony !
(tu viens à Airvault 2010 ?)

Just my 2 cents.
First interesting comments Anthony.
In particular your comments on 'dith'. It is a sound that tormented me (and still does sometimes).
You need the throat as Guan often points out, and it is probably the most non-european sound that
we need to deal with (we speakers of european based languages). But it doesn't need voice.

For the three videos that Ambros mentioned, they require careful listening to ditinguish the voice.
Of the three, in particular in relation to use of voice, I really find the Carl Ngalkanbuy recording (the third)
to be the most useful (apart from just been a fantastic example of technique, dexterity and musicality).
You can often hear at the beginning of each piece a longer note with some "PV" (eg. just after 3.20).

The best way to find the same sound is to listen and play and listen and play, remembering that the sound of a didge with
a particular pitching of voice will NOT sound the same as a different didge (even if it is in the same key) with the same PV pitching.
You need to listen and experiment.

Finally, it is interesting, after having identified the sound of "PV" plus didge to then listen carefully to pick it up in the other videos.
The first one with Adam Marrilaga also has a longer note at the beginning where you can clearly hear this sound.

Peace, M

Thanks again Kyle

See what you mean, you have a good ear!! probably trying too hard. Will have some more practice, especially on the ommiting the PV on the introduction "dips"

cheers

Hi,
Thanks for the comments about my post. You're right Paul, Martin, traditional playing needs practice and experiments. As things are going inside the body, it's not easy to teach and to understand. Jeremy Cloake one day explained me several things further than the hard tongue CD. But I needed months and months (of playing ) to really catch what he was saying.

(Francis, I'll PM you)

Hi Anthony,

I am not sure what you mean by that. Maybe I am way off but I think it is the passive voice that leads to growling sound. Listen to Milkay explainig that on Hard Tongue CD, he first plays without using the voice and then he goes on adding his voice to have the growling sound. He even puts it the same way, he goes, ''alot of people ask us how we get the growling sound. it is just because we are using our voice''! There are many guys here who can disabuse me of course..

Hi Mahoran,

I think passive voice and growly voice are both basically the addition of voice to the basic drone which have different sound qualities.
PV is maybe more like a note which is sung, giving a harmonic change to the drone and growling voice is more like just adding noise to make the drone dirty.
I find it useful to distinguish both kinds so that one can talk precisely about how to play.

seems that everybody has his own definition of that. Nice

Err... PV = Passive Voice

Indeed, the growling sound IS due to the passive voice.
Though depending on the pitch of the passive voice in relation to the pitch of the drone, you may obtain a growling sound OR a smoother sound.
I've talked in another post of "singing" in the didj the sound of a Formula1 passing by.
You get all the notes your voice can sing in the didj and smoothly connected (with the # and 1/2# and all)
Some of them make the drone growl... others make it sing.
Maybe that's what Kakadekick wanted to talk about ?
Though I'm not sure that "smooth" PV is used at all in trad'style...

Concerning the "no-PV diths sounds"... if someone could add subtitles (dith-ta, dup-pu, dhirrl-lo, whitj-tju) to a video it would be of great help ! Because they're playing so fast it's sometimes hard to spot where particular sounds come.

Ahaw,
What do you mean with "smooth" PV?

Yes, the growling sound comes from the pitch of the passive voice in correlation to the didgeridoo. I'm not sure if the timbre of the voice has much effect?



That's a great idea!

The passive voice is an interference pattern created by the mix of the fundamental drone and the correct vocal pitch. If the relationship between drone and voice is not correct it doesn't sound 'right'. That doesn't mean that other vocal notes are not used, only that there are some preferred relationships used in traditional playing (the 5th and 10th being the most notable).

I think Ahaw's 'smooth' comment refers to the not-so-growly effects (i.e incorrect interference patterns) created when other vocal pitches are used.

Kyle

That's what I meant Kyle

Mahir,
I think nitupsaar has the same definition as me for the use of voice in traditional playing. To me (another white french bastard ) there are three distinctive uses:

1. 'PV' : passive voice is a subtle effect constantly use, except in 'dith' and 'dup' sounds. The sound is then dirtier than a clear drone without voice. We all know this thanks to the exercices in hard tongue CD. But I can add a correction to Mahir's post, in fact Milkay adds his voice when, in the discussion/bonus track, he says that he will play without. It's a matter of culture, as Milkay was not a white french bastard. I don't remember where, but when the hard tongue CD appears, Randin G. said that he had trouble with how to translate yolngu understanding into balanda understanding. It's a matter of point of view, apparently Milkay says he adds his voice when he really uses it, so sometimes, to add an effect to his playing, he don't care of the PV which is the base.

2. 'Growling voice' : It's the last sound I understand. In my reference, it's the effect obtained in the discussion/bonus track when Milkay says that he adds his voice. It's a very subtle effect which was the graal to me, above the 'dith' sound! This sound was mostly responsible for my love for NEAL music when I first hear it. Listen how subtle, sweet, musical is this sound in the Mirrwatnga's clip. It's so crazy. It was the big lack in the hard tongue CD to me. Actually the growling voice for me corresponds to the scale between the PV and the scream, it's what can filled this scale, in terms of frequency obviously but also in volume. To give another example of the growling voice, contrary to Randin, Jeremy C. has listed this sound on his instructional CD. It's written has 'dawh'. The best example is track 48, one of the most fuc g good rythmic pattern I heard (good job Jeremy!). Or track 49 even if 'dawh' is not mentioned. This sound has to get the feeling of superimposing the PV, otherwise I consider this as scream (third section). As it's impossible to have two voices at the same time (OK there is throat singing...), we have to use a voice different to the PV but giving the feeling that the PV is still there. In real we replace one voice (PV) by another ('growling voice').

3. 'scream' : Clear evidence of this sound in the Gudurrku theme. Everybody of us know this, because it's a non-subtle effect (easy to understand) and we also had the habit to use this in our modern period (except Mahir who didn't had this period ). But as always I realized that it was a bit different in NEAl cause they often don't use a consonant before the 'a' screamed. We fool balanda had the habit to scream with a consonant ('t', 'k') before any vowel, to impress the family . In that way I think NEAL style is again subtle, I prefer the effect of a 'a' than a 'ka'.

Well I hope it's clear enough. It's my understanding of the use of voice in NEAL, but with what I read I think that other bastards have the same opinion.

Cheers


PS: Francis, don't hesitate to visit me, or if you have much money, to see Jeremy Cloake .

Yeah, Kakadekick,

it's exactly the way i feel it, too!