iDIDJ Australia Didgeridoo Cultural Hub

Hi all
Can you pros listen to my attempt and give me advice please. I have just been playing for a few months, self taught thanks to the Hard Tongue CD and all the great iDidj youtube, so all feedback keenly accepted.

Hi Khannan

Thanks for posting your files for us to listen to. I reckon your playing, considering the short time you have been playing is pretty damn good! I especially like the intro on the longer clip (sounds a bit like you have been listening to many Laga clips, like me!!) From my point of view, having listened to the clips a few times, I would slow down just a bit and try to tidy up the sound by really working on the tongue sounds/accents so they are clear and coherent and try to bring the throat into the picture as well when using your tongue (something that I am working on a bit more too) Also your toots are there but need a bit more clarity, this could just be because of the speed you are playing so maybe again slowing down a bit would help. When I get stuck on something I can't nail say, drone to toot/toot to drone for example, I practise just that over and over until I get it right then I continue with my normal practise but incorporating my newly learned skill, the same goes for the tongued accents/throat sounds I mentioned earlier, over and over until I get it sounding right then back to normal practise. Anyway, this is only my opinion and there are others far more experienced than I on this forum who may have other ideas how you can improve but well done anyway, I wish my playing had been that advanced after a few months of playing. Keep it up, look forward to hearing your progress

Paul

Thanks Paul for your advice, will try and follow it.

One question regarding use of voice: During 'dhrills', are we supposed to say the word dhrill along with the tongue movement, or just have a background hum or 'ooo' from the throat while doing the dhrill tongue movement? Is this what is referred to as PV in this forum?

Also, my voice stops during the breath in just after the dhrills. Is there something else that is done to keep the throat sound coming during the breath-in, or that is the way it is supposed to be?

The passive voice(PV) is that "background hum", using your voice which forms part of yolngu playing and if executed correctly gives that 3D harmonic sound to playing(something I am still working on) You should find that there is no audible PV during the dhirrls unless you are, as I was doing, intentionally adding the PV hum etc which is not correct and therefore not passive. The dhirrl sound is a tongue movement only but because you are already sounding a drone as you make the tongue movement it can sound like you are actually saying dhirrl etc especially if you have a strong tongue action. I think in my playing I may emphasis the "D" a bit if I really want to punch out the dhirrls, not deliberately, its just the sound my tongue makes as it flicks back.


If you like me, breathe as the rrl ends (bearing in mind what I said above about PV) your voice would not be in use at that time so that, as far as I am aware, is correct. The throat action/sound is something different that augments, and should be used with, the tongued accents etc to get that full authentic sound, it gives depth and colour to your playing. If then you are using your throat when you are using your tongue, say when sounding out a dhirrl, then sometimes when you breathe in at the end of the dhirrl you may hear a croak/rasping sound which can be passive or created intentionally from the throat. Again these are my observations, I am by no means an expert and would welcome any other opinions on this subject so I can learn myself whilst trying to assist others.

Hope this helps, just a bit difficult to explain in words

Paul

There is more than one 'dhirrl' in use in traditional NEAL playing. There is an elongated 'dhirrl' (as used in the Brolga song) where the PV is employed and there are the shorter, usually coupled, 'dhirrls' (as in dith dhu dhirrl dhirrl) which are accompanied by a breath and are usually too fast for any PV to be heard.

My advice would be not to worry about it and just focus on the phrasing and tongue movement. The rest will fall into place in time and with enough practice.

Kyle

Thanks Paul and Kyle for your comments and suggestions. I have one more question on the use of voice & PV:

In track 42 of Hard Tongue CD, Mi***y mentions the use of voice and demonstrates the difference. To my ears, the difference is not in the dhrills itself, but before, between and after each dhrill. Am I missing something? Also, is he talking about PV or use of voice?
Thanks again for your advice.

Hi
I have just listened to track 42 again (a number of times) and see what you mean. I think on this track M**k*y is talking about PV because he describes it as a "growling sound" and on listening it is a natural, unforced if you like, enhancement of his playing. But! he is doing it and we can hear it in the background during the dhirrl sequences which seems to go against what was said earlier about PV not generally being heard during sequential dhirrls. This could be explained by the fact that M**k*y's PV is known to be lot higher than the average players and therefore audible, I don't know? Kyle would probably be the best person to offer an explanation. As for using the "voice" this seems to take on a different meaning in the following track where M**k*y mentions using the voice instead of "rolling your tongue" and the demonstration clearly shows a deliberate use of the voice and therefore this isn't passive.

Paul

Don't get hung up on the terminology. We call it the 'Passive Voice' because when you're doing it it doesn't seem like your voice is being added. It just becomes part of your playing.

M*lk*y wasn't even aware of it being a conscious thing and had to be told that his voice was being added before he realised it. Ask Randin about this story - I'm sure it's posted on here or on another forum somewhere.

When vocal hums are added to the drone an interference pattern is realised. Different interference patterns are realised when different vocal pitches are used. M*lk*y tended to use the 'hummed tenth' a lot in his playing whereas I believe that the 'perfect fifth' is the dominant relationship in most players' repertoires and it's the one I use the most as well. When you add this vocal in a relaxed manner it soon becomes natural and is 'just there'. This is hard to explain, but is the reason we refer to the vocal as being passive.

Again, I would suggest that you not worry to much about this or get hung up on it and just continue to listen to good recordings and try and work things out for yourself. I'm sure it'll fall into place when you stop thinking about it.

Kyle

I have been really bored with my shoulder injury and looking for some kind of didge related stimulus lately, so have been lurking on the forums. I figure I'll jump in here. The passive voice debate cracks me up, but it is intriguing. I have my own thoughts about based on what I feel happening in my own playing

What I have found is that different instruments provoke different resonances in the throat and the resulting intervals/interference patterns are different stick to stick. If I let the throat open up, most sticks will provoke their own interval, or I can consciously hum a particular tone. Sometimes an instrument will not respond at all to a particular interval. The yidaki that most provoke a real trad sound for me also provoke a minor seventh passive voice. The same instruments support/amplify a hummed minor seventh plus octave. This is the interval heard on the Hard tongue and many of Larry Gurruwiwi's recordings for example. The fifth is too pure, does not have the melancholy bluesy sound of the seventh, and the third is much more characteristic of WA mago type playing. I'll post a few sound clips later

By the way Khannan, I really like your playing. It is a very interesting mix of trad technique and contemporary rhythmic sense. Doesn't sound trad, but can hear the trad technique elements.

Hey Ben,

Trust you're recovering well post-op.

The relationship you describe (minor 7th) is the same as the one I'm talking about as evidenced in the second clip here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_seventh

I was told that the note I added most of the time was the 'perfect fifth' in relation to the respective fundamental, but perhaps that's not the case (although the minor 7th on that wiki site refers to 'inverted perfect fifths'). Anyway, terminology aside I think we're talking about the same thing.

As an aside, I once had a stick that would whistle (throat singing style) when the PV was applied and the tongue moved to the retroflex position and pushed forward a bit. I've never played another stick that produced that sound.

Kyle

Eh... slow going. Hopefully I'll regain some usable strength within the next few months.




Yes, B flat is the minor seventh of C, but I don't get the inverted fifth reference at all. In terms of musical intervals:
-the inversion of C to B flat is B flat to C which is a major second.
-C's fifth is F, if you invert them, F's fourth is C.

Based on the Physics of the didge, a didge minor seventh is probably technically a harmonic not a well tempered interval, but that's pretty much splitting hairs

I'm out now!!!! totally lost in all the technical jargon and music terminology as I have no understanding of these things at all, 5th's, 10th's octaves, intervals, minors, majors etc! Will just keep it simple and try to play what sounds right.

Paul

You know we should probably continue this passive voice, vocal interval, music theory stuff on its own thread so we don't totally hijack Khannan's original intent.

Pick it up here: http://ididj.freeforums.org/passive-voice-t1173.html

Hey Kannan,

Good job indeed, its nice to hear the recent uploads of different players, keep em up!

Feedback... do you want to get only into trad playing or do you want to mix it up a bit with contemporary styles?

From a purely traditional point of view, what you're doing is a fantastic start, I agree with Paul in focussing more on tongued accents, try to 'curl' the tone of the accents - have a listen to some of Paul's recent MP3 uploads where he plays the E Guykarri yirdaki, you can hear the tone of the tongued accents inflected upwards which is what trad players should be aiming for.

For a 'bass' flavour to the accents, the throat comes into play so you get both the 'curled inflection' from the tongue flick as well as a soft, drum beat-like accent from the throat. Considering you're playing on a G stick, this is not so easy for 2 reasons... the pace of the instrument means you'll necessarily have to play fast making it more difficult to focus on the tongued and throat accents, but also the subtle variations in tone and accents are more difficult to hear on a higher keyed yirdaki. Its a trade-off for sure... tis more fun to play fast n furious on a higher keyed stick yet at the same time more difficult to control and to get it right technically.

I'm listening to the first 5 or so seconds in both your MP3 clips - the most challenging part if we're to emulate Laga - and there's good rhythm there, with 'curled inflection' to the tongued accents and bass accent with the throat effect, you'll be well on the way to sounding like Laga!

A couple of vids to show the difference what it sounds like going from a F# yirdaki to a G yirdaki:

F# yirdaki played by Laga:


G yirdaki played by Laga:


Guan

Hi Paul, Kyle, Ben Thanks for your tips and the interesting discussions on PV, all very new to me but I am learning....

Guan, yes my wish is to be able to play authentic sounding trad-style, not interested in mixing with contemporary style. Since I have just recently been trying to play the didj, I thought I will play the trad style. It appears element of contemporary style have been picked-up without my realizing it. Perhaps from my early attempts on learning circular breathing from various websites. I am not even sure I understand the difference between the two styles: Is the difference in the beats/tune/patterns? Or is it the use of tongue/overtones that sets the trad-style apart? What can I do to sound more trad?

Regarding tongued accents. Does that mean I have to drag the tongue more prominently on the gum ridge to create more of a vibrating/rolling effect during the 'dhrill'? Or does is mean to curl the tongue further backward at the top of the 'dhrill'? Or it is something else?

My apologies, if I am asking very basic questions.