iDIDJ Australia Didgeridoo Cultural Hub

Hello Guan!
Never met you, but thanks a lot for the messages you send me on youtube at the Matjaki video, which is really magnificent and reminds me of my lack of nasal and throat effects.

Attached is a file of my playing at the time, I'm a balanda and have been trying for 3 years now to get the right effects, but get stuck with the voice, nasal and throat effects.

Am I seeing this playing to technical, should I use more voice?
How does one use the throat whilst playing?
What do you mean exactly with nasal effects?

Now that the breathing is absolutely in the background for me, it feels like I can really start getting this right, but at the same time I feel like I have been trying too long without the voice (or too little of it), and that I have seen it too much as a separated thing, voice and tongue... I get the feeling the voice should be more constant?

Your help would be much appreciated, never really tried a forum before, and would love to do a masterclass, but can not go now, cause my son is too little ...

Best Regards,
Ray

Hi Ray,

I moved your message to here as this is where it belongs. "Technical Issues and Problems?" is really about technological issues and problems, for example, problems with the forum, problems with uploading attachments, forum downtime, etc.

Anyhow, I'll try my best to answer, it isn't easy to say everything I want to say in words, sometimes talking to someone face-to-face and being able to demonstrate in person is a lot easier.

The first thing is that this nasal/throat effect that I have in mind is really about strength and musculature, I don't imagine that any or many of us can do this straight off even if the mechanics are correct. It is about developing the technique through practice and more practice until the muscles that are involved are strong enough to elicit the desired effect. Also, there are lots of different nasal and throat and vocal effects, but what I am talking about here is focussed solely on tongued-accents and how to do them effectively trad style. This is possibly the biggest 'secret' that is not covered by any tuition CD or learning aide that I know of.

Mechanically, the way Adam Marrilaga described it was squeezing the nose in, in his words "ngurru binydjitjkum", literally nose make flat or skinny. I can't match Marrilaga for strength or technical precision but I get the idea behind what he is saying when he explains how he does it. For those who understand the phonetics of Yolngu Matha, it is a bit like a glottal stop, but where the glottal stop is effectively created at the back of the throat, the power for tongued-accents comes somewhere between this area and higher up in the oral-nasal cavity, but also sometimes lower down. Depending on the specific instrument one is playing, a good Yolngu player is able to adjust or 'calibrate' his 'glottals' according to the acoustic characteristics of his instrument.

I'm going to stop writing now but am attaching a short MP3 clip to demonstrate what I'm on about. The first segment of the clip is WAL style, you can hear the tonguings and voice. The second segment also uses tonguings and voice but sounds quite different. Listen to the soft drum-like beats created with the tongue and powered by the 'glottals'. I recorded the 2 segments at the same time, with the same instrument, in the same location, and with the same recording equipment. The only difference is technique.

The other thing too is that it helps to learn on an instrument that is not so high powered. Many players today - Balanda and Yolngu- love those big-belled or conical-shaped yidaki with strong backpressure. If you practice on an 'older-style' instrument with less flair and less backpressure, you'll be forced to focus more closely on technique.

The instrument I used in this demo plays in E flat fundamental with moderate backpressure and with a more open bore, it reminds me of old school yidaki from the 1960s-70s era.

Guan

Hi
A bit heavy/technical but some interesting stuff here on the voice/glottis etc

http://www.ece.uvic.ca/~knordstr/librar ... oposal.pdf

Paul

Hello Guan!
First of all, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, especially also for taking the trouble to try and communicate what you learned from Adam M. directly. This is better than gold for me.
Sorry I put my topic wrong, thought technical there meant in playing ...

Funny how things work sometimes, I just made a sudden discovery playing my Ganambarr E, which is just as you describe, not to big belled and quite narrow, but with a good resonance. If I had described my "discovery" before reading your comment, I would have said: now I suddenly realize one can actually create sounds with the throat and shape of the mouth, that get directly amplified within the yidaki, and create "yolngu like effects" when mixed with voice and tongue. My playing suddenly sounded "darker/deeper", with the tongue and overtone effects coming out more clearly.
Also, at exactly 2:55 of Matjakis clip - the one where we were exchanging comments - I cleary saw the muscle movements of Matjaki, which also taught me something ... Also, Matjaki, like his brother Adam and Larry W., has this very pronounced muscle area between nose and lips, which seems to one of the necessary muscle equipment areas... When I played before, I also tried to get some air between the teeth and the upper lip, which seems to help too, together with generally putting the lips a bit more forward, like Matjaki seems to do as well...

Thanks for the attached file, it is indeed a super demonstration, is that you? When it is: respect, terrific!

Now I have to go and try myself, which is always the hardest part. For me it seems like i need to make playing yolngu style come natural to me, otherwise I will never get the right effect, to be able to do this with practice and "brain" is not easy, which is surely no news to you

When I come to Oz in about 3 years - when my son is 5 - I hope to meet you, that would be nice.

Regards,
Ray

PS: I spend some time with Djalu, his wife and Mirrwatgna in Italy last year, because they were staying directly at the campground I was on, but then, meeting yolngu was such a terrific experience for me that I forgot all about playing and asking about playing technique, I just wanted to enjoy their company and generally learn about their culture and look on life. (I was hoping then, to ask Mirrwatgna later in the course, but with 30 people, this was - unfortunately - next to impossible).

Hi Ray,

Feel free to upload audio clips here of any new things that you discover. It is only by sharing that we can all improve! I really tried to understand how Marrilaga does what he does, having him live here with me and having quite a lot of contact with him in 2009 was a real privilege, like a dream come true. To me, there is no-one better than Marrilaga, he is the king of kings when it comes to yirdaki! I must admit that I'm sometimes mystified by what he does and no amount of questioning helps, he plays yidaki as naturally as one breathes and he also has some problems communicating what he does in words. What I'm saying is that I don't have all the answers, but maybe one day we could have a Masterclass with Marrilaga, now that would be something!

You're more observant than I in the Matjaki clip at 2.55, I still can't see the muscle movement you're talking about. Are you sure it is 2.55?

Yeah, that was me recording myself earlier today on the E flat yidaki, it is a quieter stick, one that in the old days would have been pointed into a bucket by Yolngu if being played in ceremony. I recorded myself inside the house where there was more echo and reflection of sound so that the subtleties of technique could be picked up better. The E flat stick is plainer in sound because of the open bore, I picked this instrument so that the nasal/throat effect could be heard more clearly. If I had chosen a F or F# yidaki with a big bell, the sound would have been different and the nasal/throat effect not so pronounced. The higher the key of the instrument, the more 'slurred' the effect.

Anyway, hope you enjoy the Forum. One of m y goals for this year is to improve my playing, 2009 was way too busy to practise much but hopefully I find some time this year to really concentrate and learn and practise.

Guan

Hi Guan

Here's my attempt at playing with the "Glottal effect", the recording is a bit sus but can't do it again tonight as its late and I will wake the street up. Instead of just tonguing the rhythm I have used a "G"(as in girl) sound along with the tongue. Tried copying you "WAL" example but can't get (yet!) that nice ringing drum beat you managed !!!

Paul

Hi All,

do i get this right Guan - you produce tongued-accents and support them by pulses of air from the diaphragm controlled by the glottis?
I did a quick 'n' dirty clip to demonstrate this:

A simple Dith dhu dhirrl dhirrl pattern, first only produced by diaphragm and glottis without tongue, then diaphragm with tongued-accents, and in the end all simultaneously (without passive voice).



Do you add a little touch of toot to this in your sound sample? That "nice ringing drum beat" Paul mentioned?

But what is this nose-thing about? Does this affect the intonation with the lips or does it control chambers of air and influence the timbre? I can change the shape of my nose in some ways but not the volume of my nasal cavity

Ambros

Hey guys,

Not a bad effort Paul. With the glottal, make it a lot more forceful, really push it hard. Your tonguings are good though!

Ambros, good effort too, I can hear the diaphragm working and the start of the effect we are talking about. You are slurring a little though, the effect is sharp and there's no lead-up to it. As well as the diaphragm and glottis, there is also a little tightening of the lips but there is no toot involved in this effect though it sounds similar. With the nose thing, and I'm only hypothesizing here, I think it is like this... there are 3 sound chambers when playing the didgeridoo: 1) the air column of the instrument itself, starting from the mouthpiece and ending at the bell; 2) the oral cavity starting from the back of the throat and ending at the lips; 3) the combination of the instrument and the mouth, starting at the back of the throat or in the nasal cavity and ending at the bell of the didgeridoo. The sound we are talking about effectively extends the air column of the didgeridoo as in 3).

Do you know that sound when you slap the mouthpiece of an instrument with the palm of your hand and you hear a nice ringing tone almost like a drum-beat? That's what we're trying to create with the tongue, throat, nose and lips.

Some examples below of old recordings where this technique can be heard, check out the Manikay.com website for many other goodies!

Player, Bulinybuy Gurruwiwi (I wrote about him in another topic here on the Forum), Djatpangarri song, 1964:

http://www.manikay.com/sounds/aah_18.ram

Player, Mutpu, song weti, wallaby, 1962:

http://www.manikay.com/sounds/landmorningstar_17.ram

Unknown player, Dhalwangu song, mourning songs - spider, mokuy, seagull, 1962:

http://www.manikay.com/sounds/landmorningstar_08.ram

Guan

And the modern day equivalent of this tongued accent as ably demonstrated by Adam Marrilaga on D instruments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0ouHBk8F5Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7saYwzztxY

Guan

Hi Guan!
Cool, everybody trying there throats at it
Been trying too, file attached, would love some feedback.

First I play a simple Dithu, copied from the Mununggurr CD.
Here, my question is: why does the voice sound so "exaggerated", what do I do wrong?

Second I play Dithu again, trying to make the voice more passive, but then, almost nothing is heard anymore, nothing like when Mununggurr plays this Dithu on the Hard Tongue CD. How does he get this pronounced "huuuuuuuuuuuu"-effect?

Then I play a Dithu-Drlll-Drll, trying my throat at it, seems it sounds better, but that might be wishful thinking, what do you say? Any ideas/comments? I feel like if I "drop my throat", meaning, open it on the "rlllll" of "Drlllll", I get an effect. Sort of like a dark grunt from as low as possible, does this sound reasonable?

Best Regards,
Ray

Hey Ray,

Firstly, let me say that you're making great progress here and the clip sounds great.

With regard to the use of the voice in the first segment, it sounds more prominent as you're activating a slightly higher pitch then is usually used although the effect (the interference pattern) is very similar. You're using the hummed 10th, which sounds like what Milkay uses on the Hard Tongue CD, but if you use the 5th it will integrate better with the drone and not sound as forced. The resultant interference pattern will sound quite similar to what you're doing here but without as much effort. This is my opinion at least.

The tonguing is good but you need a bit more behind it (pressure coupled with perfect timing) to create the drum beat like feel described above.

Keep at it and let us hear the next stage.

Hope this helps,

Kyle

Hi Ray,



I don't think you're doing anything wrong with the voice, remember that each instrument is different so even if you're playing a yidaki in the same key as that used by Milkay in the CD, the resultant sound and voice component will sound different. I'm not musically trained so I can't give you the same kind of feedback as Kyle. Don't try to sound exactly like the Hard Tongue CD because that is impossible without the same instrument and without Milkay's mouth, but close enough is good enough and I reckon you're close enough.

I just recorded myself playing 3 different yidaki, mucking around with the dith-dhu pattern you brought up. MP3 attached. See how different they sound? I'm doing pretty much exactly the same thing on all 3 instruments but the sonic outcome is quite unlike each other.



I think that's partly the instrument and partly the power that Milkay has. That "huuuuuuu" effect is not something Yolngu practise to achieve, it is a by-product of being a good strong player. If the yidaki one plays is good quality, that helps too.



I like this 3rd segment the best, it sounds really good! If I close my eyes, it is very Yolngu-like and the tongued-accents very good too, the only give away is that it is too clean, a bit like the difference between someone who learnt English in a foreign English school and someone who learnt English by being with English-speaking people. In the first 2 segments, the sound of the tongue is very noticeable and it would sound better if it was more 'disguised'. I think that is partly a tempo thing, for example, in your 3rd segment, you're playing faster so patternings run into each other which is a good thing!

I also put on Milkay's Hard Tongue CD to re-acquaint myself with what we're talking about. Listen to the difference between track 7 (slow) and track 10 (faster), in track 7 the tonguing is pronounced and deliberate and is not how Yolngu really play but is just a slowed down demonstration for us non-Yolngu, but in track 10 with the faster pace, that's what we're used to hearing when Yolngu play normally.

I'm not sure what it is with the Hard Tongue CD, whether it was the recording equipment used or the set-up of the equipment (how far the mic was from the bell of the instrument etc.), the instrument used, or Milkay loosing a bit of power due to age and not being as fit as he used to be, but we don't hear the sheer power that Milkay is capable of. Like with the video clips I have of Winiwini, Marrilaga, Matjaki where they achieve that beautiful ringing sound, that drum-like beat we've been talking about.

Hope I've answered your questions appropriately and that it all makes sense.

Guan

Hello Guys!
Kyle, thanx for the comments, that helps, nice to get fellow Didge players help! Looked on your MySpace Channel quickly, impressive, the mixed Track reminds me a bit of Djalu himself ...

Guan, thanx, that really did make sense and helps again! I think the ringing sound you mean is apparent in Track Nr. 28, the fast Dith-Dhu Dirll Dirll one...? Anyway, I get what you're saying, that it is a by-product for Yolngu ... , that is most of the problem I face anyway, for Yolngu most of it is a by product, and nobody can teach better than papa That's why I included this last sample here, and for a laugh off course, this might be the youngest "Yolngu" player in Europe, he is 25. Months that is

The making it sound like a real Yolngu will have to come later than, when I come to Arnhemland in a year or 2 ... I see what you're saying here, with it sounding like school English, I guess that's already a plus, to realize what I sound like. It is a result of only playing with a Mununggurr that does not respond... Going to Arnhemland, and hearing the language, will certainly help. But also, I have not really made up my mind yet, of how I really wanna play some day, maybe a bit of a Yolngu spin of is better anyway... Although learning Yolngu Matha might be pretty interesting ...

The point you make, that to remember that the Yolngu never play that slow, is good to know too, I have skipped the slower tracks often, but for muscle practice the slower ones seem to be good. I also try and mix, learning with live recordings I have, to make it a bit more interesting.

Never thought a forum could be of so much help, but thanx to you taking the time to listen to the samples and answer them so elaborately (and with samples), it did! I really did understand all your points and have enough stuff here to work on for ages, my guess is about half a year, which is great, and just what I needed at my stage of playing.

Keep up the good work, thanks so much for sharing, I hope these posts will help others too!
Ray

Sooo cute!

Glad I could help.

Guan

I have been listening to my many video clips this evening, courtesy of ididj, and never realised how much this technique is used!!! it's everywhere.. just shows you doesn't it, sometimes we don't REALLY LISTEN.. Will be practising and will post some more clips soon..

all the best

Paul